Goals: General feedback

Is there a smile on your dial? We would love to hear what you think about our new Goals feature. We've listed a few questions to help guide you, so please feel free to leave a comment with your feedback below.

  • Do you think the goal types we've made available are relevant to you?
  • Did you find it easy to go through the process from start to finish?
  • Do you feel like we could improve the goals feature? If so, how?
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Comments

36 comments
  • Well done on the progress made so far.  Here's some feedback after I tried it out:

    1. Generally like the look and feel, intuitive flow and simplicity of goals.

    2. The language you've used could really be improved.  What is kickstart amount?  Is this my starting balance or a once-off investment?  As I went through the flow I realised it was a once off amount, but that was not my initial impression, so it's confusing.  Also, using terms like 'growth scenario' is very old-school and unhelpful.

    3. Once I'd added some goals, I was totally confused by the advice to go to my settings to start the goal.  Why would I do that?  I'm right there on the goals page, so that's where I would want to do anything to do with goals.  When I visited the settings view, there was nothing related to goals displayed anyway.

    4. More generally, I'm really a bit bummed out that this feature is clearly just a skin to sell Old Mutual unit trusts.  I can't have a goal without buying a unit trust from OM?  What about the goals I already have which therefore can't be represented here?  What about a goal like retirement, which can't be supported because you're not offering retirement products (yet)?  

    My overall impression is that the feature has some promise, but it's really not about MY goals at all.  It's about what products you can sell.  And therefore by it's very nature cannot be about my holistic goals as I'm unlikely to have my entire investment portfolio sitting in 3-4 OM unit trusts.

    As someone who:

    - Already has financial goals

    - Has made some progress towards them

    - Has non-OM products which are being used to fulfil these goals

    - Does not intent to close all my other savings and investment accounts and move them to the few OM unit trusts on offer

    I'm afraid I would not use the feature at all as it delivers no personal value or insight to me.  In order for that to happen, I'd need the following:

    - The ability to associate any of my existing linked accounts with a goal

    - The ability to have a goal with a custom account which I update manually

    - The ability to link more than one account to a goal

    Hopefully that is in the pipeline somewhere....:-)

     

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  • When setting up a goal (Goals>Next>Next>Next>Next>'Choose a goal option') if i press back (once in a goal option) it does not take me one step back, but takes me all the way back to the first 'Next' - can it not just go one step back - i.e. to 'Choose a goal'.

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  • Can one create a goal that doesn't require a regular deposit? How easy is it to make ad hoc deposits?

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  • Hi Svens! 

    My feedback has mostly been covered by the community

    My comments:

    - ensure that NUDGES link in with Goals: so if I am on a trend to overspend in one of my categories and I haven't saved yet that month, state that in the Nudges section so that I can still meet my goal

    - Show the NV for each account per month so I can see how I am tracking on each account as well as overall

    - Definitely allow me to choose an account already linked in to 22Seven when allocating funds to a goal/ opening a new account

    Thanks for the updates! I love this app - it helped me get out of debt in less than 12 months :-)

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  • I agree with Claire, my goals would be more geared towards clearing my debt and seeing as I have already made some progress with that; it would be great if the app could visually show if, based on my current progression, I'm hot, warm or freezing cold in terms of my prospects of reaching my specified goal.

    Then by all means make suggestions based on that to open an investment account, that could serve as a source of funds that could be directed to squashing the debt within the specified time-frame.

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  • Hey MM, we're working on a debt-free goal type that will not be focused on an investment solution. Most of the time, your debt will be more expensive that the potential return you could reliably get on an investment. 

    Instead we're focusing on how to prioritise the payback of debt to crush it as soon as possible or minimise the cash flow impact of repayment. We would help you set up a plan that works for you and track how you're doing. 

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  • Hi Melusi,

    Thanks for getting in touch.

    You are not totally off, the goal should appear under the selected Fund. The reason this goal doesn't appear under the selected fund is that it hasn't been processed as it was only created today.

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  • The "Goals" functionality is easy to use. The bigger and more common goals all seem to be covered. Something that I think could be improved when it comes to the investment goals is an indication of the growth of the investment when you are specifying the starting amount and total required. So if I want to save a 100k and put in 50k the app says i must put in R3666 per month to get that 100k in year or so. But it does not take into account the growth of the investment which will lower the required additional monthly contribution. So if you select a high risk option growth can be projected on a 12% estimated growth. I know this can be dangerous due to volatility. If my goal is to invest a fixed amount and have it grow over a period then I want to know what it will grow to. I don't necessarily want to contribute monthly. 

    This is a great APP.

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  • Hi there, I like the idea and the layout for the goals feature so far. It has the same awesome, fluid user interface like the rest of the site and doesn't feel out of place. 

    • I think the goals were mostly relevant. Maybe on the summary screen after adding a goal you could show the description of the type of goal (more than just the icon).
    • The process was extremely easy to navigate from start to finish and simple to use/understand.
    • In terms of improvements, I understand that at the end of the day the app is underpinned by Old Mutual and is trying to encourage users to consider taking an investment through Old Mutual. My only concern is that the goals feature is a little heavy handed in that you can only select an investment when using the goals feature. I feel this could put off the user as they may feel forced into taking an investment. Is there maybe a way that you could just have a basic savings account (with fees) as another option. You could then compare that account to the investments accounts (showing how the investment could grow over time for all of the different risk zones) and in that way rather encourage the user to rather take an investment instead of a basic savings account. Also some goals may be short term (less than 6 months) and when the investment accounts say "best for 3+ years", it could again be off-putting to the user and intimidate them into not wanting to take out the investment.

     

    One last suggestion I have is that when you select an investment and it offers you the choice between taxable or tax free, I think the selection field should rather select the option that you click on and not be a toggle switch. For example, if I click on the left side for a taxable investment it should select that option and not toggle to tax free investment. Otherwise you could maybe just make it clearer that it is a toggle button or make it clearer as to which option is currently selected.

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  • I agree with the taxable/tax free page needing more work - move the toggle below the comparison text and make the button text more explicit e.g "I would like my investment to be taxable"

    no back button on this page?

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  • Save From page:

     - "When will this start" text > instead of giving me general copy here that I need to work out myself , calculate and tell me the actual date 

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  • Hey Grant, thanks for your feedback! We use the annuity payment formula to produce a monthly savings estimate so this calculation does include the growth scenario selected and the effect that growth could have on the goal. This does not consider the actual performance of the fund, but a rough estimation of what might be a moderate expectation from various levels of risk. 

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  • Hey David! Thanks for your comment, we will look into developing that functionality and it should be available in the next release.

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  • Hi Ron! Thank you for the feedback. The taxable/ tax-free page is a placeholder design. A new and improved design will be available on the next release. For the "When will this start" copy, it is a tricky estimate for us, but we will try to accommodate it.

     

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  • Hi Scrooge McDuck! Yes, that is possible, as long as the kickstart amount is R350 or more, and you switch off the debit order in the "Save from" screen. We are aware of a bug with the debit order toggle, but you should be able to deactivate the debit order soon. Once your investment is active, you should be able to easily top-up your goal in one or two clicks. 

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  • Hi Svens...

    With regards to the comments from Jesse, I would also like have a way to nominate an account as a savings account, that would allow me to keep track of where I am with regards to how much I've saved, over a period of time. The other thing I would like is a snapshot of my balance at the end of each month, so I can tell how much I've managed to save/spend over a period of time. For example, I have multiple investment accounts, savings accounts etc, and depending on the monthly requirements, sometimes I'll put some extra money in my shares or savings account. Currently I can't really tell if I've managed to save any money on a month by month basis.

    So for example you have a Net Value amount on the home page. I would like an option that shows me what the Net value was for the previous month and so on.

    May 2018 NV R 25000

    April 2018 NV R 24500

    Mar 2018 NV R 24000

    Feb 2018 NV R 25000

    Jan 2018 NV R 24500

    This way I can easily see how much I've managed to increase my net value on a month by month basis...

    Thanks

    Ryan

     

     

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  • Hey Ryan, introducing a "change" value on your net value month by month is something we can definitely do. We're planning some other updates to the accounts area soon, so we'll see if we can fit this in. You will, of course, be able to nominate linked and manual accounts to be tracked towards your goal progress soon.

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  • Good morning. Jesse and Ryan mostly covered what I would like to see as well. 

    A side note on the tax / tax free options, maybe add these in the beginning before or just after you select the particular Goal. It is a wonderful option to include, but only useful up to a limit. If you already have a tax free account(s), and you are essentially working on your limit, then this option becomes virtually useless. If might also make you miss understand the terms if you would like to benefit from the tax free option on 'every goal'. Alternatively you can 'track' the tax free accounts on the user's profile, and only make the option available if they are not 'over committed'. Because this will also directly influence the amount that can be saved. if you can only save R33000 p/a then this translates to R2750 p/m, if you create a tax free goal where you need to save R2400 p/m, it means that you only have R250 p/m 'available' for your next goal. But there is some annoyance / confusion there. 

    A note on what Jesse suggested. The 'heavy handedness' of the investment options made me drop it completely the first time (i really don't like being forced into these options). I would like to have the option of creating goals from my own saving account. This might be a horrible idea for long term investments, but if I have a big contribution due in 6 months I would like to 'reserve' a certain amount each month to make sure I can pay it at that point. 

    To be fair this is also where the app is limited by what the other banks would allow, i.e. if I 'over spend' from one of my accounts, then there is no way for the app to stop me / inform me until the transactions have been processed. But is would be nice for me to at least see that I am 'reserving' money for my particular goal.

    The idea of creating a debit order for this is also an awesome idea, and it is understandable that this is only available for the Old Mutual products. But again I do not like being forced into only choosing those options. If I have an investment account / other investment products, I would like to rather link my goals with those. Do keep the Old Mutual suggestions where they are, but at least add the option that you can choose an investment account that you already have (and that is being tracked by the app), or that you will link the goal with an investment that you are interested in opening (if you just wanted to check the contributions). 

    I was not able to choose an existing account from the 'Save From' list. I assume that it is because the BETA version does not yet link into the mainstream application to that extent yet? 

    Then finally on the spending side of this. When you now have reached the end of the saving time and you now need to spend the money. Is there an option on the transactions that include which goal your transaction is related to?

    I.e. Description 

    - Amount

    - Spending group

    - Category

    - 'Goal'

    Etc...

     

    Regards

    Herman

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  • Hey Claire! Thanks for the feedback, nice to see you on here. We absolutely have those plans in mind for Goals, this testing version is mainly focused on proving the investment process rebuild and taking community direction.

    We want to make each goal type unique. So even if an investment from 22seven is not suitable, you can use a calculator to help you with your planning and use the goals feature to track your progress as you go. 

    We are also (secretly) working on alternative ways to handle the contributions to your goals, for example rounding up your spend or applying other saving rules to help you save without knowing it.

    Hopefully you'll be using Goals on release. 

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  • Hey Herman, welcome! You may be interested in our comment to Claire (above) around tracking goal progress on other accounts and alternative ways to contribute to your goals. 

    Regarding tax free investments and Goals, we'll make sure we spin up some designs for displaying your current tax free status allowance based on the accounts we can tell are tax free. Thanks for that!

    Yes, you can only select contribution accounts from a list of verified bank accounts in the beta version. We're working on changing that so we remember all accounts you've ever entered into 22seven. 

    We also want to auto-categorise goal related transactions from tracked accounts, and present these as part of a Goals budget category in your purple money. This will help you see how Goals fit in your budget. 

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  • Seems like Claire and I were writing at the same time =P. Missed her comment completely. 

    The auto-category would work, for saving, but what about spending? Trying to see it in my head, but not quite getting it. So if I spend for a holiday I was saving for (in a goal). This is not a day to day / recurring spend, so it must currently be an exception. It is for holiday, but it forms part of a goal. Or will there be another category that is only focused on goal spending. I recently had a couple of these where I saved for the last couple of years for a big spend. These are all under exceptions, but my spending looks horrible =D. On those months is looks like I overspent a huge amount on something that was 'unplanned', but meanwhile I was saving for years. 

    On your response the: "applying other saving rules to help you save without knowing it" would be awesome to have. But this would require the app to have a lot more control over my accounts. I would be a bit torn between allowing transnational authority within the app (which would centralize my banking more, and would be nice), and the security of not having all of that 'power' in one place (for those who are more paranoid in their banking). 

    Another side note, possibly do the two step verification for the application? (I have not access the app from a new device in months, so I am not sure if the setting is in there). But the additional security would be nice. 

    Regards

    Herman

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  • We will unfortunately need your help in telling us which transactions you consider to be contributing towards your goals. We'll try remember those so you shouldn't have to fiddle with that too often. We'll consider a flat percentage towards the goals progress though, so we'll be able to tell you if you need to categorise transactions. 

    Have no fear! We don't want more authority over your accounts. The saving rules we refer to above would only be offered on the investment accounts from 22seven - even if these are just supplements to your other savings accounts. That way even if you don't want to invest with us, you can take advantage of the unique ways to save.

    We're putting out a whole bunch of security updates soon. Two factor authentication is something we're looking at seriously. It's been requested often and we're all for more security. We want you to feel safe in 22seven and know your data is secure. It's really really important to us.

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  • Hi, my thoughts are very much in line with Claire so I won’t repeat them.

    Overall I found the navigation friendly and intuitive. 

    Clearly you have a roadmap of features you are planning to include. I think it would help to see what you are planning rather than simply working within what you have. Otherwise my inclination would be to abandon any attempt on goals, since this would not ultimately result in a proper picture of all goals.

    In reality goals need to be prioritised since one’s goals tend to exceed current available funding. This means that some goals may get committed monthly contributions, while others only get ad-hoc contributions when one has a surplus like monthly under-spending on your budget, or annual bonuses. Some goals will shift if funds are not available - for example the timing of the purchase of a new car.

    Some goals will already have savings / assets associated with them - this link needs to be created. Some goals can be pooled, and can be funded collectively. 

    Each type of goal may need a different type of investment, depending on the liquidity required (like a just-in-case fund) versus long term goal like retirement. 

    Id like to see a self-insurance fund.

    Sound advice on how to approach each goal type would add significant value (but please don’t railroad us into OM products only)

    I hope you come up with a dashboard that really allows one to review one’s overall position and progress. My experience to date is that your dashboards are graphic and pretty, but not very useful unless ones finances are really simple. I don’t find them sufficient to manage my finances. The initial view of what the dashboard looks like seems to fall into the same category. 

    Sorry if the points are stated a bit bluntly. I think your initiative is a great one. Please don’t oversimplify it though, unless you are only targeting the simplest of users.

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  • I really love this idea.

    I also agree with what was mentioned above. I don't think I would want to open an investment for smaller saving goals - i.e Saving up for a new couch. The investments even state that they are best for 3+ or 5+ years savings, whereas many goals could be much more short term for many people. So I liked the idea mentioned above of having some kind of savings account option as well.

    I also agree that the taxable vs tax free section needs some work. When I toggle something, I expect the text below to change, relevant to the item I have toggled onto. i.e. If I toggle onto 'taxable', I expect to get some more information as to how taxable investments work. Some people (like myself), may have never opened taxable investments and aren't sure how it would be worked into my tax return, etc. In that way it would be helpful to list Pros & Cons for both, not just for Tax Free.

    Loving the concept!

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  • 22 Seven goals

    Hi Svens, thanks for the opportunity to give feedback on your new features.

    Firstly, 22seven is a great little app - second only to automatic allocation of expenses is the distinction between Day to Day, Monthly and Exceptional expenses has been a great help in getting a handle on my finances - one of those great features you didn't know you needed until you used it!

    What this also did, was to highlight what's missing - the ability to allocate funds for ad hoc, annual or once-off expenses - like a car service, TV licence or school outings - not necessarily big amounts, but also not things that fit into the monthly budget.

    What matters here is (a) knowing that the funds are allocated (even if they're lying in my current account or lumped together in my savings account) and (b) knowing how I'm progressing toward the target amount.

    I signed up for the Goals feature hoping that this would address the gap and though the intro blurb promised an envelope feature (exactly what I'm looking for), I didn't see it in the demo.

    Claire has already spelt out the shortcomings of the current OM push and I fully agree with her post. I'm very happy to support OM products for the longer term goals, especially if the experience is seamless, but that doesn't help with the short-term goals that can creep up on one and hijack long-term planning.

    A few key questions related to the investment products: "What happens at maturity?" Let's say I invest for 3 years and need to pay the varsity/car/property/holiday deposit by a set date. If I select an investment with a notice period:
    1. Will the app remind me to terminate the investment with enough notice to meet my deadline?
    2. Will I be able to transfer the funds to a holding (savings) account until transfer, without registering as part of my monthly income?
    3. Will the funds remain allocated to the Goal until I make the payment to the beneficiary? Otherwise I could accidentally use the funds for something else and still miss my goal!

    Thanks again and look forward to seeing how it turns out!

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  • This feels so much like a product spiel instead of a tool that I can use.

    I understand the direction you've taken as a sales pitch, but that's not why I would want to use a tool like this.

    I felt like the goals option should be spurred by a nudge, and offer a complete simulation before even having to consider debits and what OM product to choose.

    It should be a viable whatif scenario related to current budget data that can be used as a placeholder for funds, "I want to do X" well this is what your budget would look like if X happens and you save this amount to get to X.

    Then have products offered towards that goal, right now it just feels like a clunky calculator that links directly to a paid service.

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  • Hey Malcolm, welcome and thank you for your comments and questions. 

    Our minimum goal value is R350, but theoretically you could plan for bills within a goal. Reducing that minimum is something we're working on with our partners so smaller value expenses could be planned for in advance. 

    We will tell you that your goal has been achieved and we will tell you if you have a monthly amount still active. The monthly amounts will not automatically be cancelled and we will not withdraw the investment for you. 

    There is interest in making goals "mature", but we will need your explicit consent to establish a standing investment instruction and you would need to tell us in advance which account you would like to withdraw into. 

    Withdrawals are made into any verified RSA bank account (one you've used in 22seven before) - which may trigger a capital gain tax event. This would be an income transaction in 22seven if that bank account is linked to your profile. 

    We can't reserve funds in your bank account or other account though. All money contributed towards a goal in a 22seven investment account will be reserved until you choose to withdraw it. It will still grow, too! 

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  • Thanks Guys, sounds good. I think R350 is small enough - unlikely to have smaller goals. I would be happy to sign the maturity instruction when setting the goal, but an alternative could be to set a reminder in the app.

    Look forward to using Goals!

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  • I have tested the goals

    and agree with Jess in terms of the investments being for 3 to 5 years and having no alternative for goals less than a year- like a savings account

    Further, I already have a short-term goal- with money saved for that goal,so it would have been nice to have the option of linking that already existing bank account to my goal instead of having just those old mutual investment option

     I had a few bug issues,the delete button,switch fund button

     Other than the above "goals" is a welcomed new feature on 22seven

    Thanks

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  • Hi Heath, we're sorry goals isn't what you expected. This is a testing version made to ensure that a rebuild of our investment process is functional, thoroughly tested and to get your feedback on what you would like improved first. 

    Providing a complete what-if simulation based on your current disposable income and budget impact is quite a task and would likely involve extensive changes to the way 22seven works in many respects to make reliable. 

    We would like to provide a better understanding of your current disposable income to pursue a goal, but this would likely be at quite a high level and wouldn't involve "finding" money in categories themselves.

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